I was chatting with a ‘friend’ – or someone that I thought was one about some of my issues with Autism Speaks a while back and she made some horrific comments on IM. This has been on my personal blog for quite some time now. After kinda wrestling with it I want to post it here. Read more to see the IM log.
[23:53] Them: have there been higher rates of autism and aspergers occuring/being diagosed in america in the past few years?
[23:54] Me: yes
[23:54] Me: but that has nothing to do with them calling autistic people a disaster of epedemic proporations
[23:55] Me: thats just like saying your a disaster because of your seizures
[23:55] Them: no.
[23:55] Them: listen
[23:55] Them: so there have been noticibly increased rates
[23:55] Them: if there were a sudden outbreak of bird flu, unlike any other recorded in history
[23:55] Them: would you consider it an epidemic?
[23:55] Me: the flu is a contangen that is harmful to life
[23:55] Me: Autism is not
[23:56] Me: if you go by that standard then red heads are an epedemic
[23:56] Me: as well as brown haired people
[23:57] Them: no
[23:57] Them: because there have been the same amount of those colored hair people throughout history.
[23:57] Them: we can take another genetic disease, i dont care.
[23:57] Them: cerebal palsy
[23:58] Them: if suddently the percentage of children born with cerebal palsy shot through the roof
[23:58] Me: Autism is not a disease
[23:58] Them: it would be called an epidemic
[23:58] Them: fine. condition.
[23:58] Me: but your nitpicking on the word epedemic
[23:58] Me: which is beyond the point, but I enjoy a good debate
[23:59] Them: i’m just trying to point out to you that its not insulting to call something an epidemic
[23:59] Me: it is insulting to call it a disaster
[00:00] Them: do you not think that millions of people going through a severe brain disorder is not a disaster?
[00:00] Them: it’s certainly something awful for the people involved, parents, families, etc.
[00:01] Me: well if Autism Speaks has there way if I was born a few years down the road my mother would be encouraged to abort me
[00:01] Me: they have already nailed part of the spectrum on that
[00:02] Them: would you really want to bring a child into this life who would have to live with autism?
[00:02] Them: knowing what you know now
[00:02] Them: if you had the choice to spare someone a difficult life, would you?
[00:03] Me: No, I would not abort a child because I knew they would be autistic
[00:03] Them: would you abort a child if you knew they were going to be severely physically deformed?
[00:04] Them: sickly for their whole life?
[00:04] Me: No
[00:04] Me: But you are comparing apples and oragnes
[00:04] Them: not at all
[00:04] Me: Autistic people are not sickly there whole life
[00:04] Them: look
[00:04] Them: autism/aspergers no DOUBT causes some distress
[00:05] Them: if not a lot of discomfort, problems, upset
[00:05] Them: if people are morally okay with aborting a child to prevent a life of discomfort, pain, upset
[00:05] Them: that’s likely the reasoning behind it
[00:07] Me: So if you were going to have a kid on the Autism Spectrum – would you abort it?
[00:07] Them: i dont know
[00:07] Them: depends
[00:08] Me: on what does it depend?
[00:09] Them: how far along my pregnancy is, how the father feels, etc
[00:10] Me: so you view me as a lesser life form then you?
[00:10] Them: yes. thats precisely what i’m saying.
[00:11] Me: what makes me a lesser life form then you?
[00:11] Them: i was being sarcastic.
[00:12] Me: then I’m still waiting for an answer
[00:13] Them: no! God, of COURSE not. how can you even think that?
[00:13] Them: if i really thought that, would i even engage in conversation with you?
[00:14] Me: then I hate to be harsh, but you just said that if you were pregnant with a child and you knew it was on the Autism Spectrum you would seriously consider aborting it
[00:14] Them: BECAUSE I WOULD BE COMPASSIONATE
[00:14] Them: jesus christ, zach!
[00:14] Them: i just went over the fact that i would if my child had cerebal palsy
[00:14] Them: to AVOID the pain and discomfort.
[00:15] Them: to spare a life of hardship
[00:15] Me: so you would consider aborting someone like me?
[00:15] Them: i’m not having this conversation anymore.
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{ 34 comments… read them below or add one }
Good for you, Zach for standing up for yourself. I am personally offended that that bitch said that it’s better for autistics to die than to live lives different than hers. In that respect, she and Hitler aren’t so different. Hitler is already a person to be hated because he killed a whole bunch of Jews, homosexuals, and a whole bunch of religious groups. Also, he did it to people after they were out of the womb, which is unacceptable to anyone. The Nazi bitch, however, just spews her hate speeches on the Internet and what she is speaking of is killing babies before they’re even born, which is more palatable to those god-damn liberals that don’t consider babies in the womb to be human, even though they are living and growing. I have some requests to make. Zach, tell that bitch that you don’t consider her your friend anymore. Future commentators, please refer to Zach’s ‘friend’ as the Nazi bitch from now on ’cause that’s what she is.
I can’t imagine you’d want to continue conversing with this person. I am the mother of a child with Asperger’s. I’ve had people (whom I previously regarding as relatively intelligent) pat me on the shoulder and tell me how sorry they are, what a shame it is they couldn’t test for that before he was born, etc. My son is my pride and joy, and I wouldn’t change a single thing about his life. Life is unpredictable He was the baby we were told we’d never have. My oldest suffered a severe head injury at 9 leading to lifelong seizures and was later dx’d as bipolar. My second child was dx’d at 17 with terminal kidney disease. There are no guarantees in life, you just have to roll with the punches. If you can only love someone or want someone who is perfect, you are living a delusion. A dangerous one.
*Pats goddessoflubbock on the back* Nice comment. The last two sentences were the best-written ones. Adolf Hitler had similar thoughts, as I have already pointed out. I am happy that you accept your child for who he is instead of giving in to those people offering sympathy for your having him. I have to put up with similar crap about my siblings every day. I am happy that you aren’t a curebie. As an autistic on the spectrum, I need less of those, but I must put up with them every single day! My life may be full of suffering, but that is induced by the curebies. Second request to future commentators: Please call that person Zach was talking to the Nazi bitch!
This childfree undiagnosed Aspie believes that if a pregnant woman wants to abort her pregnancy for whatever reason, that’s her right.
(You don’t abort a “child.” You don’t even abort a fetus, which is the proper term. You abort a pregnancy.)
Oh, and “Sadderbutwisergirl”:
those god-damn liberals
Listen to Rush Limbaugh much?
that don’t consider babies in the womb to be human, even though they are living and growing.
Oh, they’re human. But they’re not persons. A brain tumor is made of human tissue and it grows, but I have a right to remove it — just as I have a right to remove a uterine parasite, which is how I would consider a fetus.
That girl is a bitch…seriously.
Most people with aspergers/Autism can be helped.
It’s not like being terminally ill.
And from her logic, you could abort ALL babies, because all children cause parents varying degrees of distress, pain, etc.
Kudos on standing up for yourself.
And having the self esteem to see this bitch isn’t your friend.
Alot of people with aspergers, even mild autism, go through life without problem, just look at Einstein, that person who won the nobel prize in Economics, etc.
Hey, Duderz…again, you don’t abort “babies.” Fetus != embryo != baby.
I had no idea the world of Aspies was so full of fetus-humping wingnuts.
Oh my goodness. I had no idea that there were people that agree with the Nazi bitch. Shame on you, mdc, for comparing a child to a tumor! I believe in the sanctity of human life, regardless of whether it’s in the womb or out. To me, abortion is never okay (it’s murder), and abortion based on whether or not the fetus is autistic is not only murder, it’s a hate crime, too. About tumors, those actually harm humans and threaten human life. Babies don’t. Again, shame on you.
Yeah, right, shame on me for not agreeing with your Godwin and blathering on about how saaaaayyyykriiiid unborrrrrrrrn lyyyyyyyyuuuuuufff is.
Unfortunately for you, I’m immune to attempts by right-wing twits to shame me for believing, contrary to their religion-added, misogynist propaganda, that a full-grown human woman with a life of her own is more important than a cluster of cells. Which is what most abortions are, dear, regardless of what your buddies at Operation Rescue tell you.
You’re calling me a sexist?! For saying that we should not be practicing genocide on babies? Geez Louise, what is this world coming to? Here are some reasons why abortion is actually more cruel than murdering a human out of the womb
1) The baby is helpless and has absolutely no chance of escape. It’s just stuck there in the womb. At least a baby out of the womb could be helped to escape an attempt on his/her life.
2) You’re depriving an innocent child of all the pleasures of life: being loved by a family, happiness, bringing joy to others, etc.
3) The child didn’t do anything wrong and didn’t get a chance to.
If you’re killing a baby on the basis of autism, hereditary disease, or disability, then you’re forcing your own eugenic principles on an innocent child. Shame on the Nazi bitch for saying that autistics are lesser life forms than she is! Everyone has a little problem of something or other. Does that mean we should all commit suicide? Nope!
The baby is helpless and has absolutely no chance of escape.
Again, it’s not a baby. The average abortion takes place when it’s just a clump of cells. Learn you some biology somewhere other than Bob Jones University or your church.
You’re depriving an innocent child of all the pleasures of life: being loved by a family, happiness, bringing joy to others, etc.
Who gives a shit? First of all, I don’t particularly like kids. I’m sure that makes me EBYLLL and UNWOMBANLLYYYY in your eyes, but that’s not my problem. Second, if the woman never got pregnant in the first place, the so-called “child” would be “deprived” of the same things anyway. Third, I’m also “depriving” the hypothetical child of heartbreak, pain, want, and many other unpleasant aspects of life.
The child didn’t do anything wrong and didn’t get a chance to.
Typical fetus-hugger. You idealize fetuses because they’re “innocent” — that is, they have no agency. Also, I’m sure, because they can’t speak for themselves, which enables you to talk “for” them.
Shame on the Nazi bitch for saying that autistics are lesser life forms than she is! Everyone has a little problem of something or other. Does that mean we should all commit suicide? Nope!
Did you gasp and clutch your pearls just before you wrote that? I’m visualizing you with a heavily lacqueured helmet of blond hair, wearing blue eyeshadow, a sweater set, and a big expensive cross around your neck.
*looks at comment above and laughs* Ay-yi-yi, how self-absorbed our reading audiences are. First off, I actually care about other human beings. If you don’t care about children, that’s your problem. If a woman doesn’t get pregnant in the first place because she abstains from sex, that proves that she is responsible. If you get pregnant, you’ve started something and you should finish what you’ve started. About your visualization of me, let me contradict that: I am not blonde, I am a brunette. Aside from brushing and washing my hair, I hardly ever do anything to it. Wearing blue eyeshadow?! *laughs* I hardly ever wear makeup! A sweater set? I’m wearing my crap clothes ’cause I was working in the garden and I never wear sweaters, except for in winter. About that big expensive cross and the pearls? For the same reason that I’m wearing my crap clothes, I am not wearing jewelry except for a special bracelet I have. I almost never wear jewelry except for this bracelet I bought a year ago. It came with a donation I made to cure AIDS and I will keep wearing it until AIDS is cured. By the way, AIDS is a REAL disease, unlike autism. AIDS should be prevented because it actually causes death. If that Nazi bitch wants to be compassionate towards a group of people, she should make a donation to cure AIDS. Then she’ll actually do something to make the world a better place plus she’ll have a cool bracelet like mine!
/laughing at SBWG’s literal-mindedness and her continued spewing of sex-negative, misogynist fundie talking points
Laughing at me, huh? And for saying that autistics shouldn’t be discriminated against? “I’m also ‘depriving’ the hypothetical child of heartbreak, pain, want, and many other unpleasant aspects of life.” I would recommend that you see a therapist or call a suicide hotline ASAP. Yes, this is a sign of me actually caring about you, even though you’re promoting murder of children. This will allot Jesus more time to help you with your issues. Life is the Good Lord’s greatest gift and no one should be deprived of it, even if they are autistic. I will pray for autistic abortion to be stopped and I will pray for you, too, mdc. By the way, what the heck is a fundie?
I’m an Aspie, and I don’t think that your friend (if she is still such) is a “Nazi Bitch”. I can understand in a way her point of view, however I disagree 300,000,000,000%. From what I can see, her point is that she would not want to have a child who would live a life with nothing but trouble and pain. What you should point out to her is 1. Everyone has trouble and pain in thier life and 2. A lot of the troubles that a lot of people on the spectrum have are dervived from other people, not being Autistic. A lot of people tend to mix the two up and I believe that is a huge issue. My life has (luckily) been full caring and understanding people who have taken me as I am while still pushing me to be my best. I look around me and see that my life has had a lot less pain in it than many. I hope that you did not simply discard your friend because of this and instead tried to change her views. If you were to dump her as a friend, she would just be another person out there believing these falses and most likely sharing her beliefs with others, propegating this way of thinking… even if unintentionally. If you are her friend and have the ability to change her mind, then we would be one person closer to people understanding us which is really what we need in this world.
mdc
I am a biologist, and not any kind of “religious fanatic”, and I don’t necessarily think that abortion is totally wrong in ALL cases; however, your arguments are weak and flawed, and you are totally missing the point.
Yes, at the time of the abortion the baby may not be a baby as such YET, but just “a bunch of cells”; but without interference (or natural miscarriage) it would BECOME a baby; so is most definitely REAL and not “hypothetical”.
A “hypothetical child” is one that has not yet been conceived: A pregnancy is an already conceived child, no matter how early in its development it may be. You would perhaps do well to take your own advice and learn some basic biology.
It is not a “parasite”, because parasites have a degree of choice over their parasitic relationship with a host – and more importantly, the host does NOT.
However, in the case of a baby (or “pregnancy” as you prefer to call it), the host (i.e. the woman) has CHOSEN its presence; either by active choice, or simply by choosing to have sex without contraception.
And before you retort with the “what about rape?” argument: There are contraceptives that can be used ‘after the event’, so to speak, such as the morning after pill, or the IUD; so even in this case the woman has exercised a level of choice. Either way, the baby did NOT have a choice, and does not deserve to die because of SOMEONE ELSE’s wrongdoing.
No-one has the right to kill someone else (whether in the womb or out) simply because their presence is not convenient, or because they do not conform to another’s ideals of how they ‘should be’.
If you don’t like children, then fine: Use contraception (or abstain from sex) and don’t have any. But you no more have the right to kill your own child inside the womb, than you do to go up to a pram in the street and murder the child inside.
Like Sadderbutwisergirl said, if you get pregnant, it is the result of your own actions (or inactions), and you must accept the consequences.
And incidentally, childish attempts to slur other posters on this thread simply serve to demonstrate your lack of intelligence, maturity or credibility, and your lack of confidence in your own arguments; since you obviously feel that they are not capable of standing up on their own merits, or you would not resort to stooping to such pathetic behaviour.
Thank you, Anonymous for #1: The defense of and agreement with what I said #2: The telling-off of mdc in a way better than I ever could #3: Supplying me with more arguments for my anti-abortion viewpoint. mdc, I noticed this comment above: “Typical fetus-hugger. You idealize fetuses because they’re ‘innocent’ — that is, they have no agency. Also, I’m sure, because they can’t speak for themselves, which enables you to talk ‘for’ them.”
You really think I am trying to speak for those unborn babies the same way that “experts” try to speak for us every day? One reason I am against abortion is because before I was born, I was in a situation where, if I had been in the uterus of a more liberal woman, I would surely have been aborted. Of course, I was horrified to find that out. Before you spout out that rubbish about how women should be able to choose, imagine yourself in this situation: you’ve went back in time and found out that your mother, pregnant with you, is planning to have an abortion. What would you do? I am very much mistaken if you would stick to your own principles, let her choose, and have yourself wiped out of existence. I am sure that if anyone was in that situation, they would step in and try to persuade their mother against abortion to prevent their own deaths. Think about it.
Wow. what a conversation. I was 36 when i had my daughter, who was clearly autistic from birth–before any shots, people!! And then when she was 20 mos. old, I had her brother, who is also autistic. I had my tubes tied BEFORE either was diagnosed. Not because I feared to bring another autistic child into this world, etc., but because I had health issues that would make having another child a risk to my health. If I found myself pregnant, would I abort? I would try not to–I love both my kids, and even if the new baby was going to be disabled or autistic or anything, I would try so hard to be a good mom. Children are not an inconvenience and we’re not to treat the lives we create with such disdain.
Hear, hear! We should not dehumanize people this way, no matter what their neurological wiring. Every child is a blessing to his/her parents and I can’t understand why so many parents of autistic children try to make them over into something they are not.
“Before you spout out that rubbish about how women should be able to choose….”
Just to reiterate: Women ARE able to choose; via the use of contraception, or simple abstinence from sex.
You make your choice, you accept the consequences.
A baby, on the other hand, whether born or unborn, has NO choice.
Getting back to the original point; even if you agree with abortion in principle, aborting a child because they are on the autistic spectrum is as ridiculous as aborting a child because they are left-handed.
Left-handed people are a neurological minority group who often face difficulties, much like autistic people do, due to living in a world that is designed for people who are ‘wired’ differently from them; but no reasonable, rational person would suggest the development of an in-utero test for left-handedness so that the child could be aborted and spared all the ‘suffering’ its ‘condition’ brings.
The ‘suffering’ in question is caused, at any rate, NOT by being left-handed; but by the prejudices and thoughtlessness of OTHER people – much the same as the suffering and difficulty endured by those on the autistic spectrum is largely caused by other people, and not by the autism itself.
If people are going to start suggesting that autistic babies should be aborted to spare them the suffering that OTHERS will inflict on them, then where does it end? Do we then abort a child with ANY characteristic that might lead them to be marginalised, ridiculed, or discriminated against, to ‘spare’ them from the suffering they may endure at the hands of others?! Do you, for instance, abort all black babies who would be born in a predominantly white area, to spare them the potential suffering they may endure at the hands of racist bigots?!
That is a VERY slippery slope, which absolutely REEKS of Nazism.
Surely what is actually needed is to educate people that humans are all unique individuals, and that uniqueness is something to be celebrated, not oppressed, and there is nothing wrong with being ‘different’: Majority does not equal ‘normal’, and hence minority does not equal ‘abnormal’. THAT is what would reduce the suffering of those on the autistic spectrum, and indeed anyone with any characteristic which makes them ‘different’.
Reduce is the key word here, because you can never ELIMINATE suffering; ALL people have suffering in their lives, so if you used the ‘compassionate’ argument in the way that Zach’s ‘friend’ did above, then you would kill EVERYONE to save them the heartache that is human existence! One generally hopes that people have in their lives enough happiness and pleasure to balance any suffering.
In fact, if ANYONE is to be aborted on compassionate grounds, to reduce suffering, then wouldn’t it be great if an in-utero test for bigotry could be developed; then all bigots could be aborted before birth! Aborting one ‘different’ person would prevent the suffering of that one individual; whereas aborting a bigot would prevent the suffering of countless people!
Going back to autism specifically, another reason why the notion of aborting a baby because it’s on the autistic spectrum is ridiculous is that the autistic spectrum is continuous; with an unclear boundary between people who are defined as ‘autistic’, and those who are defined, by neurotypicals, as ‘normal’ (I am here referring to the neurotypical abuse of the term ‘normal’ – i.e. meaning ‘like them’; and not to the ACTUAL definition of normal.)
So where exactly would the line be drawn?! Who would make the entirely arbitrary decisions recommending who should live and who should be aborted? And on what criteria? I sense the Nazis coming again.
As for the ‘epidemic’ of autism and Asperger’s, as mentioned by Zach’s ‘friend’, I doubt very much that their actual incidence is on the increase; more that they are simply becoming more and more widely recognised than in the past.
Furthermore, contrary to her protestations, her use of the word ‘epidemic’ in reference to autism IS insulting and demeaning because ‘epidemic’ is a negative word used in reference to disease – the Oxford English Dictionary’s definition of ‘epidemic’ begins “Of a disease…” – and autism is NOT a disease.
Plus, a simple increase in prevalence (even of a disease) does not on its own constitute an epidemic; nor is something necessarily acceptable simply because its prevalence has not significantly changed over an extended period of time (or unacceptable if the reverse is true).
Zach, your friend clearly did not have any rational basis on which to back up her weak, and quite frankly absurd, arguments; hence why she chose to childishly terminate the conversation when she realised that you were not going to just agree with her without justification. I think that the depth of the subject frightened her and she couldn’t cope with it.
In my experience many neurotypical people seem to live life at a very shallow depth, just touching on the surface, because they are able to take so much for granted and they never need to delve into deeper issues because they are not affected by them. Whereas the nature of Asperger’s often means that life is viewed from a very intellectual viewpoint, and so people with Asperger’s can be very accustomed to deeply analysing people, issues, and situations; and so to do so does not frighten or unnerve them (in fact they see it as a ‘normal’ part of everyday life, and often don’t realise that others may not view the world that way).
I like to think therefore that your friend is not a “Nazi bitch”; but is just ignorant, under-educated, and frightened of leaving her ‘comfort zone’ that is the world as she knows it. I think it would be beneficial if you attempted to open her eyes and educate her, whilst trying not to appear too confrontational in your approach – as I have found that in neurotypicals the perception of ‘attack’ seems to elicit a very strong ‘auto-defence’ mechanism, in which their mind is totally closed to the rational points you are making, and indeed rationality of any sort, and instead focuses on lashing out at you in defence with ANY argument at all, no matter how ridiculous or irrelevant.
Good luck with it if you decide to try; and if it doesn’t work, then the sad reality of the matter is that you will probably have to lose her as a ‘friend’; for your own self respect if nothing else – after all, do you want the ‘friendship’ of someone who sees you (no matter what she says) as an inferior human being? That kind of relationship can never be an equal one.
“Just to reiterate: Women ARE able to choose; via the use of contraception, or simple abstinence from sex.”
Just to clarify, I was talking strictly abortion and I’m sorry that I wasn’t specific earlier. I like the advice of trying to teach NTs how bad it is to bash the autistics simply for being the way they are. Maybe I will try that. For those autistics who feel depressed because of the curebie hype saying that they are a “disaster” or some other bad thing, I would recommend listening to Billy Joel’s song “Just the Way You Are.” It always puts me in a better mood after a day in school during Autism Awareness Month, when there is a whole load of curebie hype put out by the teachers and some students.
Hi Sadderbutwisergirl
I know that you were talking specifically about abortion, but I was simply pointing out (to back you up) that abortion is not something that can simply be viewed in isolation; the bigger picture counts, and personal responsibility is fundamental to this.
It would perhaps be reasonable to say that women who were already pregnant had a right to choose, IF pregnancy was a situation that arose biologically without any control or choice on the part of the woman.
However, the reality is that that is NOT the case, and women DO have control over whether they get pregnant or not (which, incidentally, in response to mdc’s ridiculous comparison above, is one (there are also many others) key difference between a tumour and an embryo).
The pro-abortion arguments regarding the woman’s right to choose are thus flawed, because at the point at which a woman is in a situation to consider having an abortion, she has already made her choice.
A woman has every right to choose whether to have a child or not; but BEFORE creating that child, NOT afterwards.
Unless she’s VERY naive and uneducated, a woman knows the potential consequences of unprotected sex; and so if she chooses to engage in it (and also to not take any ‘after the event’ precautions) then she makes her choice to have a child.
By the pro-abortion argument, if a woman has the right to choose AFTER creating the child, then if she happens to decide after the birth that she doesn’t want the child (as is her ‘right to choose’), she surely therefore has the right to just smother the baby in its cot; or perhaps strangle the child as an infant….stab them as a teenager….whatever she likes, whenever she decides to exercise her ‘choice’. The location of the child in- or outside of the womb is simply academic and irrelevant.
The choice is perfectly simple: If you decide after creating a child that you don’t want them, then you give the child to someone who does (i.e. put them up for adoption); you don’t simply kill them! No-one has the right to kill anyone else, for any reason.
I think both sides of the traditional abortion debate tend to blur certain issues, contraception isn’t such an easy and perfect thing (which isn’t to say I like abortion), and making it sound like killing a fetus isn’t killing a person is just a head-game (which isn’t to say I’m totally anti-choice).
But I think that the question of selective abortion needs to be considered totally separate from the standard pro-choice and pro-life talking points. Because many people who are otherwise pro-life will allow for selective abortion of disabled fetuses (this is in fact part of how enough support for abortion to legalize it even happened) and many people who are otherwise pro-choice are against selective abortion of disabled fetuses.
Personally I’m neither standardly pro-life nor standardly pro-choice, but that’s neither here nor there anyway.
The idea that it’s compassionate to decide that someone should never have the chance to live, because they will be disabled, is pretty ridiculous. Disabled people have the same capacity for happiness as any other sort of person. Yes, even severely disabled people. (Although there are people who will blame their unhappiness on being disabled, those people are generally the sort of person who would find something to whine about.)
So the idea that you’re preventing someone from being unhappy their whole life doesn’t work. Moreover, I don’t think it’s for anyone to decide whether another person is or will be capable of happiness based on a single trait. That’s called prejudice, not reality.
So the whole idea of selectively aborting a disabled fetus because you think they will be miserable and unhappy, is a statement about the person thinking that, not a statement about the actual life of a disabled person. But unfortunately the misplaced “compassion” of non-disabled people has led to the deaths of disabled people who were already born, too. You’d think that would be a warning against the idea of making life-and-death decisions on the basis of “compassion for disabled people’s suffering”, but people don’t take it that way. :-/
Amanda, thanks for your great insight!
Dude! If people are going to think like this you might as well ABORT EVERYONE! There’s not a person on earth who doesn’t suffer some sort of pain, frustration, discomfort.
I’ve got to live every day with IBS which is agonizing. Women live with cramps every month, should they get aborted? No time to read all of the posts, but it’s so annoying when folks make that, “But they’ll suffer.” argument. When I was 2-5 years old I had cancer. I don’t remember about it, but that wasn’t fun. Everyone on EARTH is going to suffer some way or another. They’ll be heartbreak, sorrow, loss, but there’s also going to be a lot of good stuff they’d miss out on to.
I’m lean between pro-life and pro-choice, but again, that argument annoys me out of my brain.
This is a very old thread, but I couldn’t help but add my own two cents.
I do not believe it is right to abort a child simply because it has a disability of any kind!! Who is anyone to say that the child can not lead a full and happy life? Just because they are different? Life is full of pain, sorry, suffering dispare for anyone that has ever been alive!! It’s part of the package!! There is pain, sorrow, suffering, discomfort, as well as happiness, love, and joy!
Whether you are NT, Autistic, a person with Downs, etc, all of us shall experience all these things and more throughout living our lives. To say that one way of life is more or less difficult than another is nieve at best.
That aside, who are you to play God? Because someone has a disability does not mean that God does not have a plan and a purpose for that person! Or even if you do not believe in God, that the person does not have a purpose or reason for being in this world. It is not for us to judge such a thing.
On the general abortion issue, I will say this. For those like myself, whom were forced without consent at a very young age, (and it was over, and over and over again) and are to scared to tell anyone what is going on, abortion as an option due to rape should not be taken off the table!
Let me explain by my own story. From the time I was only 6 to when I was 15, I went through horrid sexual abuse (on top of every other kind, including having a gun to my head) . I was so scared for my life that I never told anyone till much later in life.
Imagine if at say, age 13, after another time, I had gotten pregnant. I am scared for my life which had already almost been taken before, so I am still scared to tell anyone. Is it still my choice to be pregnant? Did I ask for this? Of course not!!
Should I have a child made out of rape, and accept the consequences of something that was against my will and not my fault! Absolutely not! And think about that child for a moment. One day they are going to ask about daddy. How is that child going to feel about being born of such an act?
In general I am against abortion, but in that case, I am not. Otherwise, I agree that you are making a choice when you decide to have sex unprotected. That child did not ask to be concieved, and as for the debate at when life begins, that is a question science has yet to find the answer to.
And there is my two cents.
“…Alot of people with aspergers, even mild autism, go through life without problem, just look at Einstein…”
…and who, with Paul Robeson, also co-founded the American Crusade Against Lynching. Albert Einstein was not only an activist against racial segregation but also spoke up a lot about other social issues too: http://specialcollections.vassar.edu/exhibits/einstein/essay3.html
The book Einstein on Race and Racism by Fred Jerome and Rodger Taylor has even more stuff about how social Einstein was. Jerome and Taylor begin with this:
“More than one hundred biographies and monographs about Albert Einstein have been published, yet not one of them mentions the name Paul Robeson, let alone Einstein’s friendship with him; or the name W.E.B. Du Bois, let alone Einstein’s support for him. Nor does one find in any of these works any reference to the Civil Rights Congress whose campaigns Einstein actively supported. Finally, nowhere in all the ocean of published Einsteiniana—anthologies, bibliographies, biographies, summaries, articles, videotapes, calendars, posters and postcards—will one find even an islet of information about Einstein’s visits and ties to the people in Princeton’s African American community around the street called Witherspoon.
“One explanation for this historical amnesia is that Einstein’s biographers and others who shape our official memories felt that some of his ‘controversial’ friends, such as Robeson, and activities, such as co-chairing the antilynching campaign, might somehow tarnish Einstein as an American icon. That icon, sanctified by Time magazine when it dubbed Einstein the ‘Person of the Century,’ is a myth, albeit a marvelous myth. In fact, as myths go, Einstein’s is hard to beat. The world’s most brilliant scientist is also a kindly, lovably bumbling, grandfather figure: Professor Genius combined with Dr. Feelgood! Opinion-molders, looking down from their ivory towers, may have concluded that such an appealing icon will help the great unwashed public feel good about science, about history, about America. Why spoil such a beautiful image with stories about racism, or for that matter with any of Einstein’s political activism? Politics, they argue, is ugly, making teeth grind and fists clench, so why splash politics over Einstein’s icon? Why drag a somber rain cloud across a bright blue sky? Einstein might reply, with a wink, that without rain clouds life would be very, very short. Or he might simply say that a bright blue sky is a fairy tale in today’s war-weary world.
“Yet, despite Einstein’s clear intention to make his politics public—especially his antilynching and other antiracist activities—the history-molders have seemed embarrassed to do so. Or nervous. ‘I had to think about my Board,’ a museum curator (who doesn’t want his name used even today) stated, while explaining his omission of some of the scientist’s political statements from the major exhibition celebrating Einstein’s one-hundredth birthday in 1979.
“When it came to how to handle Einstein’s ashes or his house on Mercer Street, everyone involved meticulously adhered to his wishes. But when it involved his ideas, and especially his concerns about what he called America’s ‘worst disease,’ the fact that Einstein wanted his views made as public as possible seems to have slipped past his historians.
“Readers may judge for themselves how much of this oversight is due to forgetting and how much may be due to other motives (including, perhaps, disagreement with Einstein’s point of view). It is not so much the motive for the omission but the consequence that concerns us. Americans and the millions of Einstein fans around the world are left unaware that Einstein was an outspoken, passionate, committed antiracist. ‘It is certain—indeed painfully obvious—that racism has permeated U.S. history both as idea and practice,’ as the historian Herbert Aptheker states. Nevertheless, he adds, “It always has faced significant challenge.’
“Racism in America depends for its survival in large part on the smothering of antiracist voices, especially when those voices come from popular and widely respected individuals—like Albert Einstein. This book, then, aspires to be part of a grand unsmothering…”
“…Let me explain by my own story. From the time I was only 6 to when I was 15, I went through horrid sexual abuse (on top of every other kind, including having a gun to my head) . I was so scared for my life that I never told anyone till much later in life…”
That’s terrible!
I hope the rapist is in jail or dead by now!
“…Should I have a child made out of rape, and accept the consequences of something that was against my will and not my fault! Absolutely not! And think about that child for a moment. One day they are going to ask about daddy. How is that child going to feel about being born of such an act?…”
I’ve heard some people who were conceived by rape argue basically “if my mother got an abortion after she was raped then I wouldn’t be here, therefore nobody should be allowed to have an abortion after getting raped.” I wonder how many people who were conceived by rape argue “if my father didn’t rape then I wouldn’t be here, therefore men should be allowed to rape.” Could that be part of why some people argue in favor of forced-marriage and marital-rape traditions?
This conversation is similar to what my Asperger BF and me are discussing and I would always lose my temper in the end…
Abortion is always a hot topic.
I’m from the Netherlands. Abortion is legal there. Same applies to gay marriage and freedom of speech XD.
I’m an almost-16-year-old male Aspie, too, so, Hi fellow-Aspies.
I would like to post my opinion on this.
I’m against aborting foetuses with a high chance of having autism or Asperger’s Syndrome. Why? Not only because I myself am autistic, but also because IF I want to have children later, I have to realize that because of my autism, my son(s) and daughter(s) will probably inherit it, too. Since the 90s, the knowledge about AS and autism has been expanded a lot, and every year, techniques of helping autistic children, teenagers and adults have gone better! There is no need to abort those people because we are ‘knowledged’ enough about autism, that we can help them to live in society with the NTs. They can do it. Well, most of them. But the same applies to victims of violence and potential suicide victims: some will and some won’t manage to life or to cope or to be a part of society- BUT the chances of making them potential thrivers and people who can live in society and who can live life have increased (thanks to psychiatrists and stuff).
Sorry, I get a bit side-tracked by this.
However, if my mother would abort (she wouldn’t because I’m the most important person in her life – yeah, she’s the greatest mum to me) me, I wouldn’t be F-ing mad at her. Not because I hate life, I’m very optimistic and I am, what you might call, a Wide-Eyed Idealist. The point is that – I believe in the Omniverse hypotheses – there are alternative timelines / universes where I am aborted. But I guess I’m going to dismiss this argument because you would all say ‘so there’s a timeline where you might be a sick violent psychopath that kills and rapes men and women?’
There might be one. However, we don’t have a true purpose in life, we determine our own destiny and stuff, so you pro-life activists can go to Utah (not intended to be offensive) with your argument that ‘we all have the right to life because God has a purpose for us and crap’. I was a foetus back then, I had no morals, no sense of good or bad. The fact that I love life is because I’m raised up by my mother and society that ‘life = good and smiling = good and crying = bad or good depending on the situation’. So yeah, what if I was aborted. I’m happy that hasn’t happened, but if it did happened, I wouldn’t be hear and stuff. I couldn’t say ‘yes’ or ‘no’. Please don’t call me nihilistic, but our lives have value because we gave it value. We gave society value, we give everything value, so the reason why abortion is a problem for a lot of people IS because we value life a lot. I value it, too, but I wouldn’t have understand our felt that value if I was aborted.
If you are a teenage girl and you get pregnant, and it was not your intention to get pregnant, then I would find abortion acceptable. Women who got raped will always have the right to abort their children that they received from the rapist(s). Whatever happens, those women have all the right to say ‘I don’t want it, abort it!’
People say ‘yeah, that teenage couple fuc.. – I mean – made love with no protection, so they have kind of said ‘yeah, I might get pregnant, so I must face the consequences if the condom rips apart”
People say that women have to use the freakin’ pill. They are right, but girls including one of my best friends said that they have all these problems and issues when they take the pill. They might get depressed or irritated or crazy, shit happens.
The moment where abortion is the least acceptable (except after hitting the expiration date of abortion) is when people abort a child after they decided to have a child. That’s why if I get children, I have to face the high chances. So, I HAVE to be prepared for autistic children. Same applies when you bang a woman who’s over her 40s, the chances are verrrrrrry high that the kid might be mentally retarded or Down Syndrome. The other moment is when you make love and it might go unprotected (either intentionally or unintentionally) that you might receive a baby and you abort it WHILE you are in a suitable situation to have children (you’ve got plenty of money to afford a third person in the house, you life in comfortable or/and healthy place and building, ect.).
Of course aborting children on basis of their race or what they are made of is wrong and stuff.
However, I’ve been struggling with something about this.
What if I might have a child that’s retarded, an imbecile, a sociopath, a psychopath or a child with Down Syndrome? I’m I a Nazi Bitch if I aborted a child with a problem like that?
True, people have developed better techniques for retarded people to life in society, but a lot of those issues hurt other people. Maybe that was a bad argument hmmmm…
Of course, life doesn’t guarantee you everything, but IMO there’s something different between an autistic person and a person who can’t talk or do actions while coming-over as someone that is choking on a brick. There’s also a paradox. NOTE: I hate peer pressure and the ignorance and attitude of society towards several issues.
If I have a child with Down Syndrome, a lot of people might look down upon me and my family, giving me the feeling that I’m with a big burden compared to their children. If my (hypothetically) wife would abort a child with mental retardation or DS, she will be seen as a Nazi or a some scumback that might be on the same list as serial murders and rapists.
Seriously, things already make me nervous or confused. Having children will make me mentally exhausted of course. But If I have a Down Syndrome or retarded kid, I will probably have a mental breakdown because I would have the feeling that I have to take care for someone 24 hours a day. I mean, more autistic people have left the house than Down Syndrome people (excluding going to mental institutions or something).
Of course, we all have suffering and pain and heartbreak and sadness. BUT their is a limit. I mean, I would dream for a world of less suffering. I mean, suffering happens in life and it’s naturally, but does that mean that people must simply accept that things like rape are just a part of life? Hell no! I would still have plenty of suffering in my life EVEN if there was no rape or murder. You know, I might put an Down Syndrome / retarded kid for adoption, but I don’ t know if someone would want to adopt such a child. Why not, Why yes?
IMO, the issue of aborting autism is far different than the issue of aborting down syndrome and retarded and psychopathic children in some way. For instance, autistic people CAN become an active part of society, while Down Syndrome and retarded children will HARDLY become an active part of society. And Psychopathic children might become a threat to us in the future. (To the pro-life people: would you have allowed the mother of Hitler to abort him or not?)
I don’ t want to come over as a ‘survival of the fittest’ fanboy, but being an active part of society is important. Yes, we have altruism and compassion and we can help people and we would like to help people, But eventually the burden is too much for the active part of society. Understand that.
I don’ t know what I am at some moments like this. Am I worthy to call myself a Wide-Eyed Idealist that strives for a world of compassion where men and women won’ t judged by their mannerisms, by their traumas, etc.??? Am I worthy to call myself a man that wants to dream for a world where rape doesn’ t exist? Am I worthy to call myself a filosopher in-training that wants to become an English Fantasy writer to bring his moralic ideals to others??? OR AM I just a discriminating bastard that’s a Nazi Lover like ‘Nazi Bitch’?
I rest my case, for now then.
“while Down Syndrome and retarded children will HARDLY become an active part of society.”
Some of them already have become active parts of society
http://www.usnews.com/education/articles/2009/02/13/college-is-possible-for-students-with-intellectual-disabilities
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/employment-for-down-syndrome-adults.html
BTW, this is an Onion article instead of a real article and it’s an enjoyable read:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/developmentally-disabled-burger-king-employee-only,462/
Not only CAN autistic people become an active part of society, but KEY parts of society. History is repleat with examples.
Aborting an autistic child could mean aborting the guy who discovers a greater source of energy, the guy who fixes politics, or devises a way to correct the climate imbalance and reverse global warming. When talking about the so-called epidemic did anyone stop and think that maybe when society and technology gets ridiculously complex autism is just nature’s way of dealing with it? The more complexity there is in the world the more the brain must be able to comprehend more and more complex systems of information. The increase in autism rates is just human evolution responding to a changing environment like all other genetic changes that happen in our genetic code.
You are taking a huge risk for the future of society by aborting an autistic child, statistically a higher risk than an average child, especially in light of the fact that it is rarer statistically for autistic people to become career criminals diminishing the weight of the “but what about people who hurt society” argument.
As for social service costs. Imagine if there was no going back a few hundred years and so no social service costs. America would still be a British colony or part of Canada (George Washington, Thomas Jefferson). We would likely still have no understanding of nuclear physics. No electricity(Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Edison). If we were lucky enough to get electricity still no computers, Microsoft and Apple would’ve never existed. From a social costs perspective we’re better off with autism than not. Besides, autism is relative. There will always be a cutoff where doctors will see those symptoms in others. If we identify a gene and cure autism from that gene there will still be more autisms, endlessly as the concept of “autism” expands. “Autism” is actually very simply difference in general. Any difference in thinking for any aspect in any direction that goes far enough will cause some trouble communicating, hence presenting symptoms of autism. So if we try to cure or abortion autism the end of that process would be for humanity as a whole to all be one giant glob of uniformity with no individuality.
And from a personal standpoint I’d say I have it pretty good. Really don’t get what the fuss is all about.
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